Tom,

I'm working on a something that requires Universal+N.  It's gone missing from the designer, and even when I add it to the xml, it doesn't seem to work.

Maybe related to this:

http://www.wargear.net/forum/showthread/2780/Universal-N_factories_missing_from_UI

Hmm - it's there for me! Try refreshing your browser possibly... CTRL-Refresh.

Wait.  Is there supposed to be a Universal+N?  I thought that is what 'Universal' was, and if you didn't want to include neutrals you needed 'Universal-N'

Ozyman wrote:

Wait.  Is there supposed to be a Universal+N?  I thought that is what 'Universal' was, and if you didn't want to include neutrals you needed 'Universal-N'

Universal affects ALL territories the continent points to, whoever owns them.  If the territory is NOT owned by the player who controls the continent, it is NOT captured..

• -N affects ALL territories as described above, EXCEPT Neutrals. 
• +N affects ONLY Neutral territories as described above.  It has no effect on territories occupied by any player, even if it's the owner of the continent.

That's my understanding - and that's my hope - Now, if I can only get the thing working..

tom wrote:

Hmm - it's there for me! Try refreshing your browser possibly... CTRL-Refresh.

"CTRL-Refresh"?  Sounds like a toothpaste  ..and a floor wax.

I don't have such a thing on my Mac.  At least not that I know of..

Anyway.. The Universal+N is showing up in designer, but that could just mean that it's copied there from the xml, right?  I mean, I could put anything I want in the xml..

 < factory_type="Super-Duper+N" />

..but nothing would happen.  I can't remember if it wasn't there before, so I'll play with it some more.

Thx for taking a look Tom

M57 wrote:

Ozyman wrote:

Wait.  Is there supposed to be a Universal+N?  I thought that is what 'Universal' was, and if you didn't want to include neutrals you needed 'Universal-N'

Universal affects ALL territories the continent points to, whoever owns them.  If the territory is NOT owned by the player who controls the continent, it is NOT captured..

• -N affects ALL territories as described above, EXCEPT Neutrals. 
• +N affects ONLY Neutral territories as described above.  It has no effect on territories occupied by any player, even if it's the owner of the continent.

That's my understanding - and that's my hope - Now, if I can only get the thing working..

It would be good to get clarification on this, as well as adding it to the FAQ, which currently doesn't mention +/- N factories.

A related question.  What is the point in having standard & autocapture?  Isn't autocapture enough?  Just include the target factory in the membership to duplicate standard.  Am I missing something?

Ozyman wrote:

A related question.  What is the point in having standard & autocapture?  Isn't autocapture enough?  Just include the target factory in the membership to duplicate standard.  Am I missing something?

With a Standard factory, not only do you have to own the continent, but you also have to own the target of the continent (the factory).

With Auto Capture, you can make a continent that points to a territory somewhere else on the board.  Not only will it fill the order but it will capture the territory for the holder of the continent.

So 'Universal+N' is missing from the designer - I'm in the middle of an update to it right now but it will be added back shortly. In the meantime adding it to the XML will work.

M57 is 100% correct in terms of how they should work!

Thanks Tom!  I got it working.. Don't know what I was doing wrong before.

M57 wrote:

Ozyman wrote:

A related question.  What is the point in having standard & autocapture?  Isn't autocapture enough?  Just include the target factory in the membership to duplicate standard.  Am I missing something?

With a Standard factory, not only do you have to own the continent, but you also have to own the target of the continent (the factory).

With Auto Capture, you can make a continent that points to a territory somewhere else on the board.  Not only will it fill the order but it will capture the territory for the holder of the continent.

I still don't understand.  Lets look at two situations:

If you had a standard factory - Factory target A.  Member territories B,C,D.

Wouldn't that behave identical to an auto-capture with

Factory target A.  Member territories A,B,C,D.

??

I'm not necessarily saying get rid of standard factories, I just want to see if I understand how things work.

Ozyman wrote:

If you had a standard factory - Factory target A.  Member territories B,C,D.

Standard:  if you occupy member territories B,C,D but you don't occupy A (someone else does),  the continent exists, but because you don't occupy the factory, no units are placed on the target territory.

Auto-Capture: Again, you occupy B,C,D, but not A.  This time, even though you do not occupy the target, you capture it and a unit is added to it.

Universal:  Same conditions as above.  A unit is added to the territory, even though you don't own it.  You are in effect putting a unit on someone else's territory.  (Anarchy uses Universal-N - we don't want the neutrals to pile up).

I think that Ozyman understands how the factories work.  And I think he's right.

The functionality of a standard factory is duplicated with an autocapture factory whose continent includes the factory.  In order to get the bonus, you must own the factory.  And you cannot, in fact, autocapture that territory because you don't own the continent unless you already own the factory.

Your right Ozy, as long as you want the units for yourself.

But what if I want to give the units away, or build up a neutral? Or make the first player godlike?

ratsy wrote:

Your right Ozy, as long as you want the units for yourself.

But what if I want to give the units away, or build up a neutral? Or make the first player godlike?

Not sure what you mean by make the first player godlike, but aren't the other two examples covered by Universal factories?

btilly wrote:

The functionality of a standard factory is duplicated with an autocapture factory whose continent includes the factory. 

This is true WHEN the continent includes the factory. However, this is not the case in the example I used, which is one that he outlined.. 

Of course there is redundancy and overlapping with all three factory types, but each has unique functionality that can not by duplicated by the others.

What can you do with a standard factory that you cannot do with an autocapture factory by simply including the target in the member list?

Ozyman wrote:

What can you do with a standard factory that you cannot do with an autocapture factory by simply including the target in the member list?

Nothing..

It's what you can do with a standard factory when the the target is NOT in the member list that's important/unique.

M57 wrote:

Ozyman wrote:

What can you do with a standard factory that you cannot do with an autocapture factory by simply including the target in the member list?

Nothing..

It's what you can do with a standard factory when the the target is NOT in the member list that's important/unique.

In other words there is no board that can be created with standard factories that cannot be created with autocapture factories.  The only difference is the continents that you need to define to create that board and make it work like you want it to.

btilly wrote:

M57 wrote:

Ozyman wrote:

What can you do with a standard factory that you cannot do with an autocapture factory by simply including the target in the member list?

Nothing..

It's what you can do with a standard factory when the the target is NOT in the member list that's important/unique.

In other words there is no board that can be created with standard factories that cannot be created with autocapture factories.  The only difference is the continents that you need to define to create that board and make it work like you want it to.

Hmmm.. This does appear to be true.. The workings of any standard factory can be created with auto-factories by including the target with the members.

It seems to me that it's too late to fix this redundancy. Doing so would probably break a number of boards, unless there was a program that did a conversion of all the xml files on the site.